Do you feel bad for a guy who has 75K in student loans?

Would you feel bad for a guy who has 75K in student loans and has a masters in Jazz Studies?

Last night I had a discussion with a friend of mine and he started complaining about his student loans. He started off at University of Wisconsin Madison(they have a decent music problem but it isn't cream of the crop). I think he got a scholarship

after a couple of years he decided he had to go to a better school and transferred to New England Conservatory. He then got his masters at Berklee

Mike is a decent musician but there are a lot of guys his caliber out there and the truth is a jazz sax player can't demand big money. He makes most of his money doing private lessons

I haven't really talked to Mike much over the past decade. He is one of my good friends from high schools little brother and he and I always got along pretty well. He is in town(one of his uncles died) and he stopped by my place.

I was happy to see him but it became a pity party pretty fast. He is a HUGE BERNIE SANDERS guy and he just kept talking about how unfair it is that he makes as little as he does with a masters degree. he didn't tell me how much he made but he get 18 bucks per half hour lesson and has between 25-30 students that he gives lesson to on a regular basis. So for 12-15 hours of work each week he is making 450-540. That isn't a lot of money. Maybe he earns a couple hundred bucks a week gigging. That means he is making between 30-40K/year. That isn't a lot of money(though per hour he isn't doing too bad). and he also lives in Boston and that ain't cheap.

one thing he does have going for him is that his long term girlfriend seems to make a lot of money.

anyway, i remember talking to Mike while he was in college and he knew that there wasn't a lot of money in being a gigging musician(especially a jazz musician) and that he'd have to teach. He didn't get an education degree so I don't think he can teach band. I asked him about getting a college gig and he said that to get in the door a person either has to be a fairly well known player or have a PHd and that even at that those jobs aren't easy to come by.

The truth is that there isn't a lot money in that field, so is someone kind of dumb to borrow 75K to pursue a career in it?

His failure to really consider the end result of that degree wasnt good planning on his part and makes it hard to feel sorry for him. If you know a plate is hot but touch it anyway and get burned its hard to feel sorry for that person. My buddy got a political science degree from the University of Michigan 30 years ago. His father told him he wasnt gonna get work but he got the degree anyway. He ended up becoming a property appraiser for banks and then owned his own business. He also has 5 rental houses now. He is successful but none of it was because of his political science degree form one of the top universities in this country.

i honestly believe he knew that he'd have a lot of debt and it would be tough to pay off. I just think he really loved going to school and studying what he was studying and assumed it would all work out and the truth is for him it kind of has. He has a nice place to live and doesn't seem to be going without much(he used to be a tiny little guy and he now could stand to lose a few lbs), of course a lot of that has to do with who he is dating(and I think they've been together for 5-6 years). I don't know what she does(something IT related) but I do know she travels a lot.

After last nights discussion he probably assumes I'm a sanders supporter. I just listened to him complain and nodded my head. I realized it wouldn't be worth debating anything with him. I will say that I doubt he claims most of the income he has on his taxes though he is the kind of guy (based on his facebook profile) who obsessed about what rich people pay).

Its hard to beat Santa Claus.

Yes if he has to pay it back. In the uk we get a student loan and only back it back in very small amounts once we are working and earning over 20k.

no.

if his mother were Chinese, she would have beat him.

a lot.

and twice on sundays.

with her shoe.

Just Grin And Bare It.

Do you think that the people who gave him a loan had much less information about what kind of a labor market he's gonna be facing? Why not sh!t on institutions like that? Here you've got a kid who pursued something he liked, something he does well- why the hell should the tuition be so insanely high? Why shouldn't society give the option that people who are committed, talented, earnest in their pursuits go to school with something without imposing on them debilitating debts which significantly narrow the option of what they can pursue in life?

The function of student debt is actually quite transparent. You've got a kid going to law school, 100 thousand dollars in debt when he finishes. Wants to do human rights law or something. Can't do it, has to pay off the debt, has to go into corporate law or something that pays.

It's a great mechanism of control.

higher education and gainful employment are not a right.

just because you get educated in something you enjoy, there is no guarantee of income.

Why shouldn't it be a right?

In a decent, free society, an individual is free to pursue their interests and talents without external authority telling them what to do and what not to do. Why should a kid of rich parents have more right to be free than a kid of poor parents?

"Rights", cost. Even in a "decent, free society". WHO pays?

You're trying to correct your tunnel vision by looking through rose-colored glasses. The key advantage of being "rich", whether one earns that status by their own efforts or, unfortunately, inherits wealth, is that it allows for more options in life. The the cold, hard truth.

Further, there are no "guarantees" in life, and if someone takes out a student loan, it's done with the purpose of improving their lot and achieving success - in the future. But there's no guarantee of what the future will bring, so a bright outlook is speculative until and if success is actually realized. If success is hard or long in coming - well, "That's life". It's a gamble, just as most things are in life.

As I see it, there are 2 real problems with student loans. One is that the money can be, and is often used for things not related to education, at all - vacations, clothing, you name it. One solution would be for student loan money to be transferred directly to the learning institution, which would have to guarantee that the student is actually using the funds toward education. Unfortunately, too many regard these as low-cost loans for whatever purpose they want. The rules must be tightened - student loans should only be available for education.

Also, some politicians often talk about "forgiving" student loans. That is ridiculous. They are LOANS, not GIFTS from the taxpayers. Even if they are paid back over an extended period of time, they MUST be paid back.

If the above 2 criteria are kept in mind by those taking out student loans, I think people would think more realistically about creating this debt for themselves, might gain an added incentive to seek education that would lead to jobs that are consistent and justified relative to the size of the debt they are incurring, and there'd be less fraud and failure to pay back these loans. But, of course, as I've said, the future is always uncertain, and that would have to be kept in mind, as well.

I like Bernie Sanders, but his proposal for universal free tuition at public colleges is a pipe dream. In this, and his 90% income tax proposal for the wealthy, he definitely goes too far.

The whole graduate system is a mechanism of control. Everyone has been brain washed that college is the only way to go. That you need a masters degree to do well at a job. Pretty soon this con job will force everyone into PHD's.

It's unfortunate, but he has no one to blame but himself.

Should we feel bad for someone who invests all his savings in an ostrich farm and winds up losing his shirt?

ostrich farm and winds up losing his shirt?

...wow...Ostriches are rough....

It's all fun and games until one of 'em decides he doesn't like your shirt.

i think a lot of people in college end up with a lot of students loans and their earning potential is such that it will be difficult to pay them off.

I think most people know what they are getting into while doing it but figure that they will worry about it later

and then later they make themselves out to be victims

apparently many of them do not even read the loan terms...

Would you feel bad for a guy who has 75K in student loans and has a masters in Jazz Studies?

To be fair, some of that money is in his first couple years of core.

I can see pursuing an academic music career if one has a specific goal and understands exactly what is required to attain that goal.

By that, I think it's poor planning to borrow for a masters in jazz if one has no forethought of where that degree will place them... and I don't think that educational cost should be the government's responsibility.

The bigger question should be WTF did it cost 75k to get an education in Jazz studies?

Schools can charge students a fortune because they know that the government will loan the kids the money to pay for it. Realistically outside of a medical or scientific degree where there are real costs on equipment that can't be avoided (though even there much of the spending is for bragging rights) there is no good reason for college to cost any more than a few thousand dollars a year.

We are being ripped off and if the way to solve that is fixed government costs for state run schools then maybe we should seriously look into doing just that.

i don't know what the breakdown was, but I'm guessing he 'pocketed' some of that money and used it for living expenses.

I dated a girl who used to manage a college book store and they sold some awesome things there, though it was overpriced. I asked her who buys those overpriced computers and ipads and ipod accessories. I don't know if she was right but she said that the students buy it up because it is easier for them to spend their student loan money at the store.

Your college education is an investment in yourself.

As with all investments, a person must choose wisely.

What these students don't realize is that defaulting on a student loan is far worse than defaulting on a credit card or car loan.

I'd only feel bad if he put himself in that much debt, got his degree but struggled to find a job.

You could have easily short-circuited the pity party merely by asking your friend, "So in retrospect, what would you have done differently?"

It's highly probable that his answer would be, "Nothing." And there you go.

If he's young enough, four years in the United States Army will wipe 50K of that debt.

i wasn't interested in getting into an argument, which is why I just nodded my head

The whole thing came up because I asked how he was doing and he said okay but brought up student loans. I said that they are a bitch(even though I had all but 5,000 of my college paid for by the time I graduated and paid that off in a couple years)

and then he started talking about how BS that was and how college should be free

i just sat there. I hadn't seen the guy for a long time and didn't want to get into an argument about politics. For the most part it was a pleasant visit. we only probably were talking about this(or he was talking about this) for 10-15 minutes

I think education is the best investment America can make for its future, so I have no problem with it being taxpayer-subsidized (but not "free"). It's a matter of choices, and that's one I support. For the amount of money we've wasted in the mid-East recently, we could have sent everyone in America who wanted a college education to school for the next hundred years.

I don't think wasting money in one area justifies throwing it another

i think education is important but don't think lack of spending is a problem. There is no incentive for anyone to try to find ways to get more value per dollar spent. For example, with technology we could easily educate far more people for far less money, but those working in academia aren't going to embrace every idea because why rock the boat, especially while you are in it.

I can help my nephew with his homework(not that he needs it) using skype or facetime.

rather than a professor having 9(3 classes) of lecture for say 300-400 students, he/she could record one lecture that would easily accessible but most anyone who wants to see it. It would eliminate the need for the space and the need for the labor

When I was in school we'd have 2 lectures(or maybe a test or quiz) and on friday we'd meet with a TA for review. With technology we could easily make it easier for fewer TA's to even be needed

I could take a guitar from a teacher in LA or New York. I could get tutored in calculus online as well.

I'm not saying everyone should go the good will hunting route but there are things we could do that would be inexpensive but that would mean making big changes to the system and few in the system want that

I fully agree with you about using technology or other methods to reduce the cost, and were a program like this to be implemented (it won't be), I'd want to see some kind of incentive for performance - perhaps fees based upon recent GPA.

Speaking of guitar, I've found the number of educational resources on the 'Net to be mind-blowing, and I've barely scratched the surface. There are all kinds of free tutorials, even including some pretty extensive "programs" of coursework.

i'm a terrible guitar player but because of youtube can fake my way through some songs.

It is amazing the wealth of information on youtube alone.

I'm not saying that there isn't a value to having a classroom. I just don't think that the older we get the less important one is.

When I was in college(this was actually a community college here I also took courses) they had a few telecourses. It kind of sucked because they were broadcast on public access at certain times and that is when I was working and I had to rely on my VCR recording it(a always had problems). Even then I remember thinking that schools could save a lot of money but just broadcasting lectures via closed circuit TV on campuses

I want college to be less expensive, or at the very least cost the same as it did in the 60's and 70's(adjusted for inflation of course) but like health care I think people focus on the wrong thing. They focus on what people pay and not as much on what it actually costs and why

Colleges need to be looked at for the amounts they are charging students. That would be a good start towards reducing student debt. But like noonan said...teachers arent gonna go for anything that cuts their pay. There are a large chunk of teachers and courses that are just perpetuations of the frauds that got them.

Just as a couple of examples...

This is a really nice version of Bach's "Jesu" I found last night and am working on:

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/johann_sebastian_bach/jesu_joy_of_mans_desiring_ver2_tab.htm

This jam is very simple (I looked it up after hearing it as background music on an ad), but it has the chords and lyrics along with a video tutorial:

http://studio33guitarlessons.com/how-to-play-renegades-by-x-ambassadors-on-guitar/

This is a guy i love but his stuff is way out of my league

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZAwxpco0DE

Ted Greene has so much enthusiasm

and I could play renegade but the bach would be something I'd struggle with

Interesting. I watched eight minutes of it and will watch a few more, but I generally find material with more of a specific focus - that addresses my question of the moment. Also, I have a lot of stuff like modal theory already under my belt from playing mallet percussion and keyboards.

stuff greene is saying is way over my head. I just think those videos are cool. I've read a lot about him and he seems to be like the guitarists guitar player and he was content on doing private lessons and lectures

when it comes to my actually learning something on the guitar that renegade link would be the kind thing that would work for me.

BTW, you can play a very simple version of "Jesu" with just the melody line, and I like it for simple scale practice. It's easy to "hear".

For example, to play it in C major, just start on "E": E-C-D-E-G-F-F-A-G-G etc.

75,000? I feel sorry for anyone with a debt this high, especially in the name of education. It's profoundly expensive, almost a deterrent.

The problem is the rules changed and most people don't know it. My friend in college got a music degree and got a great job as a grocery store manager. Used to be any college degree was a step up on the application scale.

Second, college is WAY more expensive becuase we've got business type deans running schools with profit motives. The huge increases in college tuition overwhelmingly based on amenities built to sell the schools for all the wrong reasons (rock walls as they call them) and not education or professor salaries.

a college degree(regardless of what it is in) will open certain doors. I wouldn't have been hired at Johnson Controls if I didn't have a college degree(and my degree was not in anyway relevant to the work I did)

but there are a lot of people like my buddy who believe that he is entitled to make a living doing what he wants to do and believes it is unfair if that isn't possible.

Second, college is WAY more expensive becuase we've got business type deans running schools with profit motives.

that makes no sense? Who profits?

he huge increases in college tuition overwhelmingly based on amenities built to sell the schools for all the wrong reasons (rock walls as they call them) and not education or professor salaries.

I wouldn't blame it all on professor salaries though would argue we could easily reduce payroll costs and still provide a great education. Professors aren't all getting rich but they also might not be working all that many hours either

My grandfather was a college professor. He basically was 2/3rd research and 1/3 teaching. He retired in 85 and joked that some of his counterparts whose primarily job was teaching taught only 3 more credit hours per semester than he did.

The way he seems to work is you bust your ass a few years doing all the bitch work and then you reach a point where others do your bitch work and you are basically on easy street. I'd have no problem arguing that a young professor isn't that well paid for all he/she is expected to do but I'd say that many of those 50 year old professors earning the bigger salaries have a fairly cushy gig

and the infrastructure is built because the students want it and because Government will loan anyone money to attend it makes it easier for the colleges to pass those costs on to the students

but with technology we should be able to eliminate a lot of labor when it comes to education

itself?

Because if so, that's insane!

On the one hand, he really should have known better to get that steep a loan. On the other hand, it's a bloody travesty that a student can't get better rates.

If he also needed to loan money for living costs, he would have been better off getting a job, but I can imagine that's not that easy.

Sounds like a real putz.
First of all I don't feel bad for anyone who gets a loan.
Anyone who wants to prey on me by GIVING ME MONEY is welcome to take their best shot.

Secondly a masters in almost anything is kind of pointless, but especially in music or liberal arts. Get a doctorate so you can get a job as a professor, or don't bother with grad school at all.

Lastly, saxophone is a horrible obnoxious instrument and I have no sympathy for anyone who plays one. The only thing I'd ever consider paying him do is to STOP playing.

Were you the victim of a beating by saxophone?

Assault on the eardrums.

Student loans - do you feel bad for a guy who has 75K in student loans

Not at all.

He chose to take out the loans.