Doctors going on strike, standing on picket lines singing and chanting, behaving for all the world like factory workers or dockers or miners.

They have abandoned any claim to professionalism they once had.

Yea, but it's free, so who cares?

but what do they want?

more money, more nurses...or are they bitching about the fucking refugees?

They are objecting to a change in contract which is ostensibly about turning every part of the NHS into a 24/7 service but which provides no additional funding or doctors. The doctors are arguing that it will impact on patient safety.

The fact that doctors have not taken any industrial action in more than 40 years rather suggests that Sibthorpe's inference about it being the result of socialised medicine is wide of the mark. It's more that the government has managed to piss off even people who don't easily resort to strike action.

The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, was a co author of a paper on privatising the NHS; safe pair of hands. Not.

YUp, exactly.

The OP is away with the fairies - he WANTS the NHS to die.

Professional people do not go on strike, end of story. The doctors never thought of going on strike before the creation of the NHS. Of course it is socialized medicine that has brought all this about.

And incidentally, anyone who believes it's about patient safety will believe anything. That's about as credible as the lawyers claiming they were agitating over legal aid changes out of concern for access to justice.

The doctors are arguing that it will impact on patient safety.

Its all about money.

Doctors themselves wouldn't work any more hours than they currently do, weekends would be covered by shift patterns. But weekend work would now be part of normal hours and not overtime. To compensate there would be a pay rise for Junior Doctors.

I am not really sure whose side I am on here. Hunt wants to improve the levels of service and doctors don't want to lose money. I want weekends to work same as weekdays without skeleton staff levels, but I also want doctors to feel they earn enough money for this work.

??

>>7
Well you can be on both sides. Support the extension of services but point out that it's going to cost money. Hunt, who supports the privatisation of the NHS and suggested that parents look on the internet to determine whether their child's rash needed further investigation (!!!) says his proposals are perfectly sound; doctors who worked for years to qualify say his proposals are dangerous. WHo are you going to believe?

Ultimately I am on the Docs side, I don't want them messed about.

Hunt is trying to improve the service, but as far as I know no one really wants this change.

Not sure how the proposals are dangerous...has this been explained? And seriously who doesn't Google their childs rash or go on the NHS site in the first instant before phoning the doc?

Not sure how the proposals are dangerous...has this been explained? And seriously who doesn't Google their childs rash or go on the NHS site in the first instant before phoning the doc?

Inherent in the contract is the relaxation of restrictions to the number of hours doctors can work. In order to meet the demands of turning the NHS into a 24 hour Tesco, doctors will have to work more hours, more back to back shifts and they'll do this in the context of the starting point for unsocial hours shifting to much later (even though MPs get additional support after 7.30pm). This is dangerous because an exhausted doctor is a doctor who will make mistakes.

At the moment junior doctors are paid “standard” time for working during normal working hours, which is defined as 7am-7pm Monday to Friday. What most irks junior doctors is that, if Hunt prevails, “standard” time will be extended from 60 hours per week to 90 and stretch up to 10pm every night of the week apart from Sunday. Juniors say that by not being paid extra in future for working at antisocial hours they will lose up to 30% of their salary.

In addition Hunt proposes to remove the GP trainee supplement, which ensures they have pay parity with hospital trainees, would see a reduction in their pay of around a third. The supplement equates to £14,328 in year one, £15,481 in year two and, £16,179 in year three (at which point, if they’ve been training full time, they will have qualified as a GP). The new contract appears to apply only to hospital doctors (and as emergency treatment is already available - including Consultants - 24/7 it's not at all clear what is to be gained) but these other plans will inevitably have a knock on effect to services as a whole. As the plans do not in fact make GP or clinic services available 24/7 almost no one will notice any difference - unless you really want routine clinic appointments to be available on Sunday. If you do then there will be a cost implication, and Hunt does not propose to fund this.

Forgive my ignorance as I'm an American and am not familiar with how your system works, but if people need emergency care during off hours, they still go to a hospital, no? We also have walk-in clinics which are open on weekends, some 24/7, some with hours from 7:30 AM to 9:00 PM. I mean, in the States, it's very rare for a doctor to have office hours on a weekend. If it's an emergency, you go to a hospital where doctor's are available 24/7/365.

Is there a shortage of doctors?

Except there aren't enough doctors to work the shifts proposed so it'll be inevitable that the junior doctors will have to work more than they are at the moment and, with no overtime, they'll ostensibly be taking a pay cut not a pay rise. That's the difference between the BMA'S argument and the government's argument. The BMA's argument is based in an already struggling reality.

Furthermore, the whole thing about a 24/7 NHS - it gives the impression that we don't have one. We do. If you hurt yourself at 1am on a Sunday, the NHS is there for you. The debate is more whether someone wants to have an appointment with a chiropodist at 1am on a Sunday, because that really would be a 24/7 NHS, is completely unaffordable and it is dubious whether people actually want that.

It does beg a couple of questions: what exactly is a 24/7 NHS; and why are they picking specifically on junior doctors to do the work?

"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

If you knew why they were striking you wouldn't make such a stupid comment.

Except that, of course, it fits your political narrative so... as you were.

Colin (or whatever) is a typical right wing *beep* house, I'm alright jack sod everyone else. If the working classes, and I include professionals in this, stand by and do nothing while the ruling classes impose contracts that 98% of the people they are imposing it on agree is dangerous then where will that leave us?

That being said he is probably a doley with too much time on his hands given his post and reply frequency...

No, this is what happens when you vote in a conservative government.

It was absolutely ridiculous to propose a 24/7 NHS, if you chop a finger off you go down to the 24/7 accident & emergency at your local hospital, if you have an ingrown toenail you wait till Monday to see your doctor. This has worked fine for 70 years, it's the conservatives with their heads in the clouds who are trying to change it to a all 24/7 service, when there was no public demand for it.

The conservatives couldn't run a hot bath.

Try and educate yourself before spouting off about things you have no clue about in future.

Agreed, the argument was, and Hunt stated this yesterday, was that hospital mortality rates are higher at a weekend well this is the case everywhere not just the UK. Countries that supposedly have a better standard of healthcare than the UK have similar figures.

This is a man who wants to dismantle the NHS for his pay masters benefit and supports homeopathic care, NHS in safe hands??

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa003376
http://www.theinformationdaily.com/2014/05/15/weekend-hospital-stays-hold-higher-death-rates

It's true that mortality rates are higher at the weekend, but the important question is why this is true.

If I have an ingrowing toenail, I'm almost certainly going to survive, but I'm not going to get it treated at the weekend.

If I crash my motorbike, I'm much less likely to survive, and it's about an equal chance for it to happen on any day.

Is the mortality rate higher at the weekend because of staffing levels or is it because the easier cases aren't in the mix?

Interesting >>18, the rationale of people "It's only a sprain I will wait 'til Monday" V's "I think I am having a heart attack, better call 999".

I am just an ordinary bloke and not sure of any statistics and what not but I would have thought that percentage wise more serious cases are admitted at weekend therefore more chance of a higher percentage of deaths.

- People drink more at the weekend = higher rate of booze related serious accidents
- People ride their motorbikes further and faster at weekends = more serious crashes
- More climbing activities at weekends = more falls etc. etc...

there was no public demand for it.

I agree, its a bit of a pointless thing to upset doctors about.

it's the conservatives with their heads in the clouds who are trying to change it

They know exactly what they're doing. On the face of it "24/7" sounds like an admirable thing to aim for, except that, for all relevant services, it's already 24/7. You want to be able to see a GP at 3.00am? Why? But, dressed up in a smoke screen of reasonableness, the Tories are planting the suggestion that the service is not fit for purpose. I mean, you can buy cheese at 3.00am, why shouldn't you be able to get your ears syringed? Because, you know, a self service till at Tesco is exactly the same thing as a skilled professional.

If they want a Rolls Royce, 24/7 service they'll have to effing well stump up Rolls Royce prices, instead of expecting a Ford Fiesta to pass as a limo, which can't do. Of course that's the whole point - set it up to fail, say "There you go, the whole thing is broken, we'd better flog it to Honest Joe McPharma for fourpence ha'penny".

This sounds like a clear case of conservatives claiming that the government doesn't work, then getting elected and proving it.